[ winks at her, though his cheer isn't quite up to its usual heights. He goes quiet again to think ]
So... you said you want her to know she can't do stuff without consequences, but do you really think she doesn't know that? Or really think that killin' her would be the kinda consequence she cares about?
[ frowns, and looks away, clearly kind of...fussy ]
A lotta people here seem to think that as long as they get hurt too, then it's all okay. Like what Lucifel pulled after the trial. But that ain't how it is at all! They're still just doin' whatever they wanna do! How the heck is it a consequence if it just makes 'em feel better about what they did?
So I guess my question is... do you want her to hurt, or do you want her to be sorry? Cause for a lotta people those are two different things.
You're right about getting hurt just making some people feel like it's all okay. They realize they did something "bad" and start acting agonized and guilt-ridden. Oh no, how could they have done this, or oh no, they were forced to do something terrible, or whatever. And then they find a "punishment" so they can feel better about themselves again. Someone tried to come to ZRAEL for that just the other day, and we told him to shove it.
But letting them stay tragic and self-pitying isn't better. I don't care how guilty they feel. They're not thinking about why they really did it, or what they'd do again in the same situation. They're just upset that they're negative on some kind of stupid moral balance sheet. They'll still keep doing whatever they want to, and if it never actually results in something bad for them, they'll eventually stop even worrying about the balance sheet.
And that's assuming they were actually sorry in the first place. Some people are unrepentant.
...I want her to never do something like that again. In real life, killing her would be the easiest way to accomplish that, but...
Why not let 'em stay feeling negative? Maybe they should--that's normal, y'know! Make 'em think about why they really did it, make 'em think about what they'd do in a different situation! You should have to walk around and feel bad about it after you kill somebody, 'cause there isn't actually any way to really make it right! You can't just do one or two things or say the right combination of words that equals up to somebody's life!
I dunno, guess there're people who're never gonna care about that kinda stuff, but... it'd be pretty damn ballsy to show up at somethin' like B's dance, or somebody's picnic, after you murdered a bunch of people and didn't even try to make it right by them. If nobody wants to talk to her or trust her... well, I'm sad about that too, but it seems a hell of a lot more effective than makin' her hurt and hope that teaches her somethin'. That happens to everybody all the time, and a lotta the time for no reason at all.
They can stay feeling negative, I don't really care. I'm just saying that isn't going to make them think about anything other than how bad they feel about it.
And you know people have done that plenty, right? Just shown up at a party after having murdered people and not even tried to apologize for it. I'm pretty sure that's half of SensitIV.
Right, by "make" I mean, keep askin' about it. Don't let 'em get away with not answering. Turn 'em away from parties, chase them out. People get away with it 'cause nobody actually makes them feel bad afterwards either.
And I get it, 'cause that's fuckin' hard too. You gotta really be invested in makin' somebody see your point of view.
I'm not invested in making her see my point of view. I don't want to commit myself to harassing her indefinitely. She's not worth that much of my time.
Yeah, exactly! I guess what I'm tryin' to get around to askin' is... why is she worth any of your time, if whatever you choose to do isn't gonna make her not do it again? If it won't solve the problem in any way, then you might as well just focus yourself elsewhere, don't you think?
[ s-shrugs, and gives her a kind of rueful grin ]
That's usually the kinda thing I mean when I tell you to not worry about stuff, or to not bother over people who're being trouble. I'm not sayin' you oughta forgive them or let 'em off the hook, but... if you're mad and they're not learning or changing then you're the one still losing out! They're not worth it! Put effort into the people and things who are worth it, and otherwise... whatever!
...I guess my thing is... I won't believe anything is totally impossible to do something about. I won't give up without trying. Trying might at least do something, even if it doesn't totally solve the problem.
And that's especially true for people like this, because just leaving it alone will make it worse. Whether I do or don't forgive them doesn't affect them. So they'll learn that they can do that kind of thing and nothing will happen, and they'll have even less hesitation about doing it than before.
Well, I'm never gonna tell you not to try! I just want you to make sure you're doin' something you actually think is gonna fix the problem.
You didn't say you were gonna kill her, but watching the people who would... I get the feelin' they kill people in retaliation just because it makes them feel good to do it, but that's all! I don't wanna see you be that way 'cause it's just as much about doin' what you want as the person you're tryin' to get back at, while lyin' to yourself about why you're doin' it. It's the same thing!
Nah, it's not that I think they enjoy killing, I think they just... wanna make people hurt the way they hurt, and feel justified and righteous about it 'cause they're doin' it to get back at somebody.
...And I think it's almost never gonna be the only solution here. If nothin' else... we're dead! We're in hell! But we're still walkin' and talkin' and supporting each other! Fuckin' anything is possible! There's no way that killing somebody is the only answer!
Haha! That sounds like him, yeah. Well, I'm glad you've got him lookin' out for you the way you are for him.
So... we covered talking to her and killin' her, and neither or those are good. What else we got? B likes shrinkin' people are putting them in jar-jail, I think he calls it. We tried that yet?
[ drifts over to giiiingerly sits on the bed...nearish her. Trying to be friendly and supportive! ]
[She looks up a little surprised at the comment about her looking out for Intensity, and the surprise doesn't fade when he sits down on the bed, although she doesn't look upset about it.]
...That's probably best for stopping people when they're in the middle of doing something, rather than afterwards. Intensity suggested Nightmare Vision...
It has to be related to their current situation. A nightmare about something they're doing going wrong, somehow. But beyond that, we can make them see whatever, I think. I haven't tried anything particularly out there with it.
...Does it have to be violent or scary or whatever? Like, make it so she shows up to the next game without her shirt and there's a test she didn't know about, or something like that!
...Yeah, I wasn't excited about that one. It's not worth the effort for something trivial, and I don't feel like coming up with an elaborate psychological torture is really a better solution than just killing her, even if people would let me off easier for it.
Well... it's not like you actually gotta figure it out right now. There's no time limit on bein' mad about it, or not knowing how to feel about it. We got time to brainstorm.
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[opens her mouth like she's going to argue, and then just closes it again]
Well, that's one strategy, I suppose.
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[ winks at her, though his cheer isn't quite up to its usual heights. He goes quiet again to think ]
So... you said you want her to know she can't do stuff without consequences, but do you really think she doesn't know that? Or really think that killin' her would be the kinda consequence she cares about?
[ frowns, and looks away, clearly kind of...fussy ]
A lotta people here seem to think that as long as they get hurt too, then it's all okay. Like what Lucifel pulled after the trial. But that ain't how it is at all! They're still just doin' whatever they wanna do! How the heck is it a consequence if it just makes 'em feel better about what they did?
So I guess my question is... do you want her to hurt, or do you want her to be sorry? Cause for a lotta people those are two different things.
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[...]
You're right about getting hurt just making some people feel like it's all okay. They realize they did something "bad" and start acting agonized and guilt-ridden. Oh no, how could they have done this, or oh no, they were forced to do something terrible, or whatever. And then they find a "punishment" so they can feel better about themselves again. Someone tried to come to ZRAEL for that just the other day, and we told him to shove it.
But letting them stay tragic and self-pitying isn't better. I don't care how guilty they feel. They're not thinking about why they really did it, or what they'd do again in the same situation. They're just upset that they're negative on some kind of stupid moral balance sheet. They'll still keep doing whatever they want to, and if it never actually results in something bad for them, they'll eventually stop even worrying about the balance sheet.
And that's assuming they were actually sorry in the first place. Some people are unrepentant.
...I want her to never do something like that again. In real life, killing her would be the easiest way to accomplish that, but...
[She shrugs a shoulder stiffly.]
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I dunno, guess there're people who're never gonna care about that kinda stuff, but... it'd be pretty damn ballsy to show up at somethin' like B's dance, or somebody's picnic, after you murdered a bunch of people and didn't even try to make it right by them. If nobody wants to talk to her or trust her... well, I'm sad about that too, but it seems a hell of a lot more effective than makin' her hurt and hope that teaches her somethin'. That happens to everybody all the time, and a lotta the time for no reason at all.
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And you know people have done that plenty, right? Just shown up at a party after having murdered people and not even tried to apologize for it. I'm pretty sure that's half of SensitIV.
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And I get it, 'cause that's fuckin' hard too. You gotta really be invested in makin' somebody see your point of view.
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[ s-shrugs, and gives her a kind of rueful grin ]
That's usually the kinda thing I mean when I tell you to not worry about stuff, or to not bother over people who're being trouble. I'm not sayin' you oughta forgive them or let 'em off the hook, but... if you're mad and they're not learning or changing then you're the one still losing out! They're not worth it! Put effort into the people and things who are worth it, and otherwise... whatever!
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And that's especially true for people like this, because just leaving it alone will make it worse. Whether I do or don't forgive them doesn't affect them. So they'll learn that they can do that kind of thing and nothing will happen, and they'll have even less hesitation about doing it than before.
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Well, I'm never gonna tell you not to try! I just want you to make sure you're doin' something you actually think is gonna fix the problem.
You didn't say you were gonna kill her, but watching the people who would... I get the feelin' they kill people in retaliation just because it makes them feel good to do it, but that's all! I don't wanna see you be that way 'cause it's just as much about doin' what you want as the person you're tryin' to get back at, while lyin' to yourself about why you're doin' it. It's the same thing!
...You get me?
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I don't enjoy killing. There are just some situations where it's the best solution. Or the only one.
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...And I think it's almost never gonna be the only solution here. If nothin' else... we're dead! We're in hell! But we're still walkin' and talkin' and supporting each other! Fuckin' anything is possible! There's no way that killing somebody is the only answer!
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And I'm not going to kill her. I promised Intensity I wouldn't do anything else stupid, and that would be stupid, after all of that.
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So... we covered talking to her and killin' her, and neither or those are good. What else we got? B likes shrinkin' people are putting them in jar-jail, I think he calls it. We tried that yet?
[ drifts over to giiiingerly sits on the bed...nearish her. Trying to be friendly and supportive! ]
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...That's probably best for stopping people when they're in the middle of doing something, rather than afterwards. Intensity suggested Nightmare Vision...
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How much control do you have over that? What happens in it, and all that.
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[Just gives him the most tired and unimpressed look.]
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