...Usually I'd drag you out to do somethin' else so you didn't have to think about any of this, but I guess that's not really--the right thing to do here. I'm tryin' to listen when people talk!
[ he goes quiet again for a few more seconds, again visibly trying to figure out what to say; he's pretty sure he was about to drift into uncomfortable-when-not-about-me territory. But this is new and different for him and it's very challenging and things with Maki are... awkward. At best. Eventually he settles on: ]
So... I dunno what I should be doing. ... Is there somethin' I can do?
[Some small amount of the tension goes out of Maki when he says that, and she slumps slightly.]
...I don't know. I don't know what anyone should do, including me.
[She also pauses to think, and makes an abortive movement to fidget with her hair before her bloody-hand hallucination catches her eye and she just drops her hands down again.]
What do you think I should do about it?
—I don't want a lecture. And I don't want to argue about the right or wrong ways to deal with something like this, or anything like that. I'm just... trying to decide, what I want to do. And I want to hear your thoughts.
[ he opens his mouth again, like he's about to start telling her things to do.
and then stops
and then closes his mouth
and thinks about it
and tries again ]
...What... I'd wanna do is-- think about whether or not I thought talkin' to her again would do any good, and I'd wanna think about if I thought she'd come find me, or if she's the sort of person to take it out on other people if she's mad at me... but I dunno what I'd do about it yet if the answer to that last one was yes. I try to get answers outta people directly all the time 'cause you can only really solve a problem for good if you can fix what caused it.
That's why-- I never wanna say killin's the answer. Cause yo-- [ stops, frowns, continues ]--I'd be solving one problem, but probably creating another one. Especially here. And if I don't understand their reasons, then it'll just keep happening again and again.
But if she won't talk to you at all, or you can't understand each other... it's harder. You gotta... decide what's important to you, what kind of ending you wanna get out of all of this! So... we can talk about that!
I guess... I don't know what she'd say that would help anything. It's like I said... She did what she did. Either she tries to claim that the game forced her to do it, which I don't believe, or she admits it was her. If she admits it, she either says she regrets it or she has no remorse.
Even if she says she did it and regrets it... She still did it once, and enjoyed it fine at the time. It doesn't erase that, and it doesn't give me any reason to believe she won't do it again.
Right, so... that rules out talkin' to her again as a thing to do. 'Cause if nothing she says will change how you feel, then there's no point in it, right?
What'd make you feel like it was all taken care of, or settled--as much as anything here gets settled.
It's not even just—that she killed us. Violent tendencies are one thing. Obviously I understand that. But I wasn't even a person to her, while she was wearing that crown. I was a tool to do whatever she wanted, for her pleasure, and nothing else. And I couldn't disobey anything. I don't know how to fix that.
I want... to show her she can't just expect to do something like that with no consequences.
Sure, I get that. That's normal. For me, a lotta the time the consequence is they gotta look me in the face and tell me why. That actually seems to work a lotta the time as far as makin' people actually think about stuff. But if that doesn't work... mm...I think I'd try to take steps to make sure she couldn't do it again. Like if you end up in a game with her next time, fuckin... restrain her before stuff even starts, maybe?
...Sorry about the rest of it though. That's worse than usual, for here.
[Acknowledging his sympathy. And she's silent again for a bit, figuring out if there's anything else she wants to say about that, before eventually she just goes with:]
...Because the chances of me being in a position to stop her the next time she tries something like that in a game are pretty small. We just got matched up randomly this time.
What happens if she ends up matched with someone I care about...?
[ winks at her, though his cheer isn't quite up to its usual heights. He goes quiet again to think ]
So... you said you want her to know she can't do stuff without consequences, but do you really think she doesn't know that? Or really think that killin' her would be the kinda consequence she cares about?
[ frowns, and looks away, clearly kind of...fussy ]
A lotta people here seem to think that as long as they get hurt too, then it's all okay. Like what Lucifel pulled after the trial. But that ain't how it is at all! They're still just doin' whatever they wanna do! How the heck is it a consequence if it just makes 'em feel better about what they did?
So I guess my question is... do you want her to hurt, or do you want her to be sorry? Cause for a lotta people those are two different things.
You're right about getting hurt just making some people feel like it's all okay. They realize they did something "bad" and start acting agonized and guilt-ridden. Oh no, how could they have done this, or oh no, they were forced to do something terrible, or whatever. And then they find a "punishment" so they can feel better about themselves again. Someone tried to come to ZRAEL for that just the other day, and we told him to shove it.
But letting them stay tragic and self-pitying isn't better. I don't care how guilty they feel. They're not thinking about why they really did it, or what they'd do again in the same situation. They're just upset that they're negative on some kind of stupid moral balance sheet. They'll still keep doing whatever they want to, and if it never actually results in something bad for them, they'll eventually stop even worrying about the balance sheet.
And that's assuming they were actually sorry in the first place. Some people are unrepentant.
...I want her to never do something like that again. In real life, killing her would be the easiest way to accomplish that, but...
Why not let 'em stay feeling negative? Maybe they should--that's normal, y'know! Make 'em think about why they really did it, make 'em think about what they'd do in a different situation! You should have to walk around and feel bad about it after you kill somebody, 'cause there isn't actually any way to really make it right! You can't just do one or two things or say the right combination of words that equals up to somebody's life!
I dunno, guess there're people who're never gonna care about that kinda stuff, but... it'd be pretty damn ballsy to show up at somethin' like B's dance, or somebody's picnic, after you murdered a bunch of people and didn't even try to make it right by them. If nobody wants to talk to her or trust her... well, I'm sad about that too, but it seems a hell of a lot more effective than makin' her hurt and hope that teaches her somethin'. That happens to everybody all the time, and a lotta the time for no reason at all.
They can stay feeling negative, I don't really care. I'm just saying that isn't going to make them think about anything other than how bad they feel about it.
And you know people have done that plenty, right? Just shown up at a party after having murdered people and not even tried to apologize for it. I'm pretty sure that's half of SensitIV.
Right, by "make" I mean, keep askin' about it. Don't let 'em get away with not answering. Turn 'em away from parties, chase them out. People get away with it 'cause nobody actually makes them feel bad afterwards either.
And I get it, 'cause that's fuckin' hard too. You gotta really be invested in makin' somebody see your point of view.
I'm not invested in making her see my point of view. I don't want to commit myself to harassing her indefinitely. She's not worth that much of my time.
Yeah, exactly! I guess what I'm tryin' to get around to askin' is... why is she worth any of your time, if whatever you choose to do isn't gonna make her not do it again? If it won't solve the problem in any way, then you might as well just focus yourself elsewhere, don't you think?
[ s-shrugs, and gives her a kind of rueful grin ]
That's usually the kinda thing I mean when I tell you to not worry about stuff, or to not bother over people who're being trouble. I'm not sayin' you oughta forgive them or let 'em off the hook, but... if you're mad and they're not learning or changing then you're the one still losing out! They're not worth it! Put effort into the people and things who are worth it, and otherwise... whatever!
...I guess my thing is... I won't believe anything is totally impossible to do something about. I won't give up without trying. Trying might at least do something, even if it doesn't totally solve the problem.
And that's especially true for people like this, because just leaving it alone will make it worse. Whether I do or don't forgive them doesn't affect them. So they'll learn that they can do that kind of thing and nothing will happen, and they'll have even less hesitation about doing it than before.
Well, I'm never gonna tell you not to try! I just want you to make sure you're doin' something you actually think is gonna fix the problem.
You didn't say you were gonna kill her, but watching the people who would... I get the feelin' they kill people in retaliation just because it makes them feel good to do it, but that's all! I don't wanna see you be that way 'cause it's just as much about doin' what you want as the person you're tryin' to get back at, while lyin' to yourself about why you're doin' it. It's the same thing!
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
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[ he goes quiet again for a few more seconds, again visibly trying to figure out what to say; he's pretty sure he was about to drift into uncomfortable-when-not-about-me territory. But this is new and different for him and it's very challenging and things with Maki are... awkward. At best. Eventually he settles on: ]
So... I dunno what I should be doing. ... Is there somethin' I can do?
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...I don't know. I don't know what anyone should do, including me.
[She also pauses to think, and makes an abortive movement to fidget with her hair before her bloody-hand hallucination catches her eye and she just drops her hands down again.]
What do you think I should do about it?
—I don't want a lecture. And I don't want to argue about the right or wrong ways to deal with something like this, or anything like that. I'm just... trying to decide, what I want to do. And I want to hear your thoughts.
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[ Scrubs at his hair absently while he thinks about it ]
Have you talked to her? That's probably where I'd start... wantin' to know what she was thinking...
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['talked to' = 'threatened,' but that's not important information here.]
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Sure... that makes sense. Our room got weird too, but nothing like that, and even then we weren't really good for talking for a while after.
...If you tried again tomorrow, do you think you'd get better answers? Sometimes it's worth tryin' again! Sometimes you can tell it isn't gonna be...
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[ he opens his mouth again, like he's about to start telling her things to do.
and then stops
and then closes his mouth
and thinks about it
and tries again ]
...What... I'd wanna do is-- think about whether or not I thought talkin' to her again would do any good, and I'd wanna think about if I thought she'd come find me, or if she's the sort of person to take it out on other people if she's mad at me... but I dunno what I'd do about it yet if the answer to that last one was yes. I try to get answers outta people directly all the time 'cause you can only really solve a problem for good if you can fix what caused it.
That's why-- I never wanna say killin's the answer. Cause yo-- [ stops, frowns, continues ]--I'd be solving one problem, but probably creating another one. Especially here. And if I don't understand their reasons, then it'll just keep happening again and again.
But if she won't talk to you at all, or you can't understand each other... it's harder. You gotta... decide what's important to you, what kind of ending you wanna get out of all of this! So... we can talk about that!
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[ANOTHER LONG PAUSE]
I guess... I don't know what she'd say that would help anything. It's like I said... She did what she did. Either she tries to claim that the game forced her to do it, which I don't believe, or she admits it was her. If she admits it, she either says she regrets it or she has no remorse.
Even if she says she did it and regrets it... She still did it once, and enjoyed it fine at the time. It doesn't erase that, and it doesn't give me any reason to believe she won't do it again.
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What'd make you feel like it was all taken care of, or settled--as much as anything here gets settled.
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[no! something other than killing her!!]
...I'm not sure.
[thinks some more]
It's not even just—that she killed us. Violent tendencies are one thing. Obviously I understand that. But I wasn't even a person to her, while she was wearing that crown. I was a tool to do whatever she wanted, for her pleasure, and nothing else. And I couldn't disobey anything. I don't know how to fix that.
I want... to show her she can't just expect to do something like that with no consequences.
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Sure, I get that. That's normal. For me, a lotta the time the consequence is they gotta look me in the face and tell me why. That actually seems to work a lotta the time as far as makin' people actually think about stuff. But if that doesn't work... mm...I think I'd try to take steps to make sure she couldn't do it again. Like if you end up in a game with her next time, fuckin... restrain her before stuff even starts, maybe?
...Sorry about the rest of it though. That's worse than usual, for here.
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[Acknowledging his sympathy. And she's silent again for a bit, figuring out if there's anything else she wants to say about that, before eventually she just goes with:]
I probably won't be there the next time, though.
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What happens if she ends up matched with someone I care about...?
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[opens her mouth like she's going to argue, and then just closes it again]
Well, that's one strategy, I suppose.
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[ winks at her, though his cheer isn't quite up to its usual heights. He goes quiet again to think ]
So... you said you want her to know she can't do stuff without consequences, but do you really think she doesn't know that? Or really think that killin' her would be the kinda consequence she cares about?
[ frowns, and looks away, clearly kind of...fussy ]
A lotta people here seem to think that as long as they get hurt too, then it's all okay. Like what Lucifel pulled after the trial. But that ain't how it is at all! They're still just doin' whatever they wanna do! How the heck is it a consequence if it just makes 'em feel better about what they did?
So I guess my question is... do you want her to hurt, or do you want her to be sorry? Cause for a lotta people those are two different things.
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[...]
You're right about getting hurt just making some people feel like it's all okay. They realize they did something "bad" and start acting agonized and guilt-ridden. Oh no, how could they have done this, or oh no, they were forced to do something terrible, or whatever. And then they find a "punishment" so they can feel better about themselves again. Someone tried to come to ZRAEL for that just the other day, and we told him to shove it.
But letting them stay tragic and self-pitying isn't better. I don't care how guilty they feel. They're not thinking about why they really did it, or what they'd do again in the same situation. They're just upset that they're negative on some kind of stupid moral balance sheet. They'll still keep doing whatever they want to, and if it never actually results in something bad for them, they'll eventually stop even worrying about the balance sheet.
And that's assuming they were actually sorry in the first place. Some people are unrepentant.
...I want her to never do something like that again. In real life, killing her would be the easiest way to accomplish that, but...
[She shrugs a shoulder stiffly.]
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I dunno, guess there're people who're never gonna care about that kinda stuff, but... it'd be pretty damn ballsy to show up at somethin' like B's dance, or somebody's picnic, after you murdered a bunch of people and didn't even try to make it right by them. If nobody wants to talk to her or trust her... well, I'm sad about that too, but it seems a hell of a lot more effective than makin' her hurt and hope that teaches her somethin'. That happens to everybody all the time, and a lotta the time for no reason at all.
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And you know people have done that plenty, right? Just shown up at a party after having murdered people and not even tried to apologize for it. I'm pretty sure that's half of SensitIV.
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And I get it, 'cause that's fuckin' hard too. You gotta really be invested in makin' somebody see your point of view.
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[ s-shrugs, and gives her a kind of rueful grin ]
That's usually the kinda thing I mean when I tell you to not worry about stuff, or to not bother over people who're being trouble. I'm not sayin' you oughta forgive them or let 'em off the hook, but... if you're mad and they're not learning or changing then you're the one still losing out! They're not worth it! Put effort into the people and things who are worth it, and otherwise... whatever!
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And that's especially true for people like this, because just leaving it alone will make it worse. Whether I do or don't forgive them doesn't affect them. So they'll learn that they can do that kind of thing and nothing will happen, and they'll have even less hesitation about doing it than before.
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Well, I'm never gonna tell you not to try! I just want you to make sure you're doin' something you actually think is gonna fix the problem.
You didn't say you were gonna kill her, but watching the people who would... I get the feelin' they kill people in retaliation just because it makes them feel good to do it, but that's all! I don't wanna see you be that way 'cause it's just as much about doin' what you want as the person you're tryin' to get back at, while lyin' to yourself about why you're doin' it. It's the same thing!
...You get me?
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